Absolutely Essential Arcane Spells .... although Non-Core.

User3 · Post by **User3** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:10 am

Frank wrote:You're over thinking this. I'm pretty sure it's Supernatural abilties that you trade. I personally would trade my Supernatural Ability to have an empathic understanding with my raven in order to shoot disintegration eyebeams at will. I think that I would laugh while I was doing so.

The way I read it, I'm pretty sure that your Familar has the Empathic ability, and not you.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:44 pm

SRD wrote:Empathic Link (Su): The master has an empathic link with his familiar up to a distance of 1 mile.

It unambiguously states that the master has the empathic link. Since the Serpent Kingdoms spell will let you trade out any supernatural ability that your character has, there is no doubt that you can trade out that empathic link for good powers. Even broken powers.

There are, however, two ways to read this:

1. The Wizard has a supernatural ability.
2. The Familiar has a continuous supernatural ability to allow the Wizard to have a supernatural ability.

---

I think that I'll assume option one, because option two would allow the Wizard to trade his ability out an infinite number of times for however many other supernatural abilities he felt like picking up.

Of course, you can make a very good case for recursiveness here. The Wizard trades out his supernatural empathic link, and then the Familiar's ability to grant the Wizard an empathic link ability immediately triggers and grants him an empathic link again - which can again be traded out. And so on. That's a valid reading, and if you put it forward I couldn't really say you were wrong.

But you're already trading a virtually meaningless supernatural ability for good supernatural abilities - so I think the reading that the empathic link is an ability of the familiar is ultimately unnecescarily greedy.

-Username17

User3 · Post by **User3** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:57 pm

There's a third option:

--The familiar has a Supernatural ability and the wizard is one of the targets.

One can also make an argument that since the ability to have a Familar belongs to the wizard, and the Familiar's abilities are based on the power fo the Wizard, any abilities it has are in fact the wizard's abilities. Kinda circular, but it scans.

Now, your arguments can be made. I'm not saying they can't. But they are arguments, with valid counter-arguments.

The best cheese has no defensible arguments against it and clearly describes its effects. Getting Bard music off of Virtuoso, a Domain off of Contemplator(I think, check my cheese for 3.5 compliance), or getting Su abilities off of other crazy classes is easy and has 0% confusion in an actual gaming situation.

Sure, you're DM will probably have problems with you shooting Disintigrating beams out of your eyes and may house-nerf you, but at least you won't get into the "I think this says this and not that" argument.

User3 · Post by **User3** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:59 pm

I still fail to see how this "Trade Supernatural Ability" spell is broken. It's pretty much a combo spell. You need to successfully expend other spells or resources (like K said, the Stone to Flesh spell for example) in order to even get a chance to use it. Meaning that if your Stone to Flesh spell fails, you still have to expand additional resources to use the Trade spell.

User3 · Post by **User3** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:01 pm

Well, the spell was intended to be balanced in two ways:

1. The spell has a long-ass casting time. This means that you only can use it as a story effect, really.

However, since you can get it as a spell-like(by using something like Archmage or the FR Player's handbook feats), you can now use it as a combat action. For lazier people, you can just get it as a scroll.

2. You are only supposed to be able to steal powers from guys you encounter, meaning that the DM automatically controls your access to powers.

However, since you can summon monsters(using Planar Binding or the Summon line of spells), create undead, or just generally cast divinations and go Pokemon and catch 'em all, that is generally a sham.

It also means that the DM now has to think "hey, I can't use that monster since this PC can totally steal its powers."

Now, that's how it was intended to be balanced. We can see that both don't work as intended with even a little work.

Now, the spell is conceptually broken for these reasons:

A. Trading lesser powers for greater powers. The player can drop a single use of a level-appropriate ability for something much more powerful and usually usable at will, meaning that from a ECL standpoint, he can be rocking encounters with "I win" powers.

Its the same as saying, "lets give this mid-level mage free Wishes. I'm sure his game won't break."

B. Being able to customize your powers on the fly. With a garden full of petrified enemies, you can teleport home, steal a power, and be back in time to rock an encounter with that power.

C. Monster abilties are designed to be unbalanced. For example, if a mage wanted to get an at-will Supernatural Disintigrate without this spell, he's blowing 2 feats and a 17th level (epic) slot.

Monsters are built with the "glass jaws and laser beams" philosophy, meaning that they get powers that are too big for their level and compensated with by crippling weaknesses("great cosmic power, tiny tiny living space," to quote Disney's Alladin).

When a PC can get that laser beam and not be forced to take the glass jaw, he wins. At least Shapechange makes you look ugly and take the flaws, even though its broken in its own way ( Check out the "Fun with Supernatural abilities" thread
).

User3 · Post by **User3** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:01 pm

Doesn't the spell last for only an hour per level? And you permenantly loose the supernatural ability?

So, you can have a great time with your beholder eyes for a day, and then never be able to use them again. Or am I missing something?

User3 · Post by **User3** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:31 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you use that crack-ass Shapechange spell to accumulate a bunch of throw-away abilities in the first place? You know, get some fine ass from some epic level monstah?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:49 pm

Catharz wrote:Or am I missing something?

It's not instantaneous, it's a duration spell. So you get your old supernatural ability back when the spell ends. So for a few hours, you get some fly ne ability and then you get your old power set back.

But spells don't have to stay legal, they only have to be legal when cast. So as Lago points out, you can use shapechange to get a supernatural ability, trade it for a different supernatural ability, and then turn into a different monster. But it also combos with itself. You can trade your ability for a new ability, then wait until just before you get your real abilities back and trade the fake abilities for more real abilities and allow your real abilities to fade back in while having a pile of fake abilties in addition to your normal pile.

In general, if any spell can avoid its own drawbacks by the combo of casting it again (like polymorph any object), it should be highly suspect.

-Username17

User3 · Post by **User3** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:49 pm

Ability Rip
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting time: 1 hour
Targets: Two living creatures
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving throw: Fortitude negates (see text)
Spell resistance: Yes

You rip a supernatural ability of your choice away from one creatre and transfer it to another. The two creatures must be within 30 feat of each other and remain concious thoughout the casting of the spell. In exchange for this new abiliy, the recipient permenantly looses a supernatuural ability it already possesses. If it has none to exchange, it instead looses two class levels (or 2 hite dice if it has no class levels)...

User3 · Post by **User3** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:25 pm

Well, yeah. In D&D, permanently doesn't really mean anything.

Permenant effects can end either through themselves or through an outside source. The Permenancy spell doesn't mean that you keep all of your phat spells when you're the target of an MDK, because it's 'permenant'.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:38 pm

As if that spell wasn't cracked out enough already, here's another obvious piece of cheese for it:

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1103928596[/unixtime]]
If it has none to exchange, it instead looses two class levels (or 2 hit dice if it has no class levels)...

PHB 29, Bardic Music, Inspire Greatness text wrote:
A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points....<snip of irrelevant stuff>....The bonus hit dice count as regular hit dice for determining the effect of spells such as sleep

With a bard in the party, you can also layer every (Su) ability shapechange gets you onto your familiar and the bard's animal companion and your horse and well you get it, for the cost of sacrificing temporary HD over and over again.

User3 · Post by **User3** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:47 pm

Strong Bad says:

SWEET CUPPIN' CAKES.

Dragon_Child · Post by **Dragon_Child** » Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:11 am

Pointed out by my friend Tass:

Feed.

User3 · Post by **User3** » Sat Dec 25, 2004 9:37 pm

There's no reason to assume that once the HD taken off come off of the Bard HD first. When the music goes away you could easily loose two HD and have that be a valid interpretation.

By the same token, you cannot assume that HD gained from Feed remain when you loose the Feed ability.

Lago_AM3P · Post by **Lago_AM3P** » Sat Dec 25, 2004 9:57 pm

By the same token, you cannot assume that HD gained from Feed remain when you loose the Feed ability.

Why not?

Do the savaged corpses have the ability to come back to life normally after shapechange wears off?

User3 · Post by **User3** » Sun Dec 26, 2004 8:16 pm

The Feed ability includes the ability to retain HD gained by Feed.

Loose Feed, loose the HD.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:04 am

That's not what Feed says though. Feed is an instantaneous, non-dispellable ability. That's good and bad for game balance.

Good:
Since these are instantaneous, real hit dice, you can't pull the curse of lycanthropy trick where you just give yourself extra "permanent" hit dice that therefore don't cost you XP. Therefore, once you start feeding, you'll never get a real class level again - your ECL is going up and your XP total is not.

Bad:
The bad is pretty obvious. You can theoretically Feed indefinately, and those are real hit dice, and give real BAB, and really unbalance the game beyond recognition.

---

Now, as for paying out those hit dice, I can only assume that it would follow the normal pattern for level loss. In which case, Hit Dice are lost in this order:

1> A hit die from your source fo hit dice which contributes your largest number of hit dice other than your base racial hit dice (if any).

2> Your base racial hit dice.

So where does that leave a Familiar with Bardic Inspiration? Well, first lets do a Familiar with no Bardic Inspiration:

1> Your weasel has only virtual hit dice, set by your Character level.

2> Your weasel loses two of them.

3> Check for death: Your weasel is still alive.

4> Your special ability to allow your weasel to use your character level instead of its hit dice kicks in, and resets its hit dice to its normal level.
---

Net result: your weasel hasn't lost a god damned thing.

Bardic Inspiration is a tough one, it would only allow you to lose itself if it was the largest contributor of hit dice. But it doesn't matter, because your Familiar has its hit dice set by another source.

---

Interesting note: The "permanent" loss of abilities or hit dice is, in fact, a permanent spell effect. That means that you can dispel it.

-Username17

User3 · Post by **User3** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:56 pm

SRD, on Barghests wrote:Feed (Su): When a barghest slays a humanoid opponent, it can feed on the corpse, devouring both flesh and life force, as a full-round action. Feeding destroys the victim’s body and prevents any form of raising or resurrection that requires part of the corpse. There is a 50% chance that a wish, miracle, or true resurrection spell can restore a devoured victim to life. Check once for each destroyed creature. If the check fails, the creature cannot be brought back to life by mortal magic.

A barghest advances in Hit Dice by consuming corpses in this fashion. For every three suitable corpses a barghest devours, it gains 1 Hit Die, and its Strength, Constitution, and natural armor increase by +1. Its attack bonus and saves improve as normal for an outsider of its Hit Dice, and it gains skill points, feats, and ability score improvements normally.

The barghest only advances by consuming the corpses of creatures whose Hit Dice or levels are equal to or greater than its own current total. A barghest that reaches 9 Hit Dice through feeding immediately becomes a greater barghest upon completion of the act.

Where does it say in this text that the ability is instantaneous?.

Really. Its not there. The words "instantaneous" or "Duration: instant" are never used. The ability lacks a duration on it, and one could easily assume that its a permanent effect.

Now it is non-dispellable, just like any Supernatural ability. It also has a very limited list of counters, which means that that it is very difficult to get rid of. That on top of the fact that an eaten soul is not a traditional target for a spell (although True Ressurection).

However, there is no reason to not assume that those HD won't vanish in a AMF, or vanish if the Barghest were to somehow loose the ability.

--------------

Additionally, the Feed ability includes text on how Barghests advance by using this ability. Since a PC Shapechanged into a Barghest is in fact not a Barghest(since they use different advancement rules and are only assuming the form), there is no reason to even assume that a PC with this ability even gets temporary HD while he's Shapechanged. He'd totally get to eat people and have them not come back, but he doesn't meet the targetting conditions for the second part of the ability(HD gain).

The ability does seem to become an instantaneous effect when the Barghest becomes a Greater Barghest, however, since the monster has its own stat text which are all "natural" abilities.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:01 pm

K wrote:The ability lacks a duration on it, and one could easily assume that its a permanent effect.

So you are saying that we can dispel the damage off hits from flaming breath?

You could easily assume all kinds of things, but if you assume that a Barghest's Feed ability is permanent, you'd be full of shit. Instantaneous is the default duration for any action. If you take an action and it has an effect and the effect is not listed with a duration of any kind, it is an instantaneous effect.

Not, of course, that it makes a damn bit of difference. Any action-based ability that is used and has a non-instantaneous duration lasts out its full duration, whether you still have the ability or not. So if you Shapechange into a Basilisk and turn some clowns permanently into stone - they jolly well stay stone if you turn back. If Feed were a permanent effect, it would stay on permanently once you ate some fool - whether you were currently a Barghest or not.

---

The only kinds of supernatural abilities whose effects go away immediately when you shift forms are continuous abilities. And Feed is not Continuous because it requires an action (eating dudes as a full-round action in this case).

-Username17

User3 · Post by **User3** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:12 pm

k at [unixtime wrote:1104166564[/unixtime]]
Additionally, the Feed ability includes text on how Barghests advance by using this ability. Since a PC Shapechanged into a Barghest is in fact not a Barghest(since they use different advancement rules and are only assuming the form), there is no reason to even assume that a PC with this ability even gets temporary HD while he's Shapechanged. He'd totally get to eat people and have them not come back, but he doesn't meet the targetting conditions for the second part of the ability(HD gain).

This logic would seem to imply that a PC who shapechanges into, say, a Retriever can't hit people with its eyebeams, as the text says "a Retriever's eyes can produce four different magical rays", and a PC shapechanged into one is not in fact a Retriever.

In fact, this interpretation would pretty much mean that shapechange doesn't allow you to actually use any Supernatural -- and for that matter, most Extraordinary -- abilities of the things you change into, since pretty much all of them, as far as I can see in a five-minute survey of the Monster Manual, refer to "the <creature name>". I don't know that drastically nerfing Shapechange would be a bad thing, but I'm pretty sure that when the spell says you gain extraordinary and supernatural abilities, it intends for you to be able to use them.

--d.

User3 · Post by **User3** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:33 pm

Frank wrote:So you are saying that we can dispel the damage off hits from flaming breath?

Nope. I'm saying that when the descriptive text is lacking, then the DM houserules the ability.

Frank wrote:Instantaneous is the default duration for any action. If you take an action and it has an effect and the effect is not listed with a duration of any kind, it is an instantaneous effect.

What's the page number for that? Honestly, I think you are just making this up as you go along.

Frank wrote:Not, of course, that it makes a damn bit of difference. Any action-based ability that is used and has a non-instantaneous duration lasts out its full duration, whether you still have the ability or not. So if you Shapechange into a Basilisk and turn some clowns permanently into stone - they jolly well stay stone if you turn back.

A continuous ability to retain HD gained from Feed would go away when you lost the ability. The permanent effect of "not coming back when eaten" would stay.

Since the effect has no duration listed, it can easily be that way.

This is an effect with no clear rules. Don't pretend that your personal houserules that break the game will be accepted by others.

d. wrote:This logic would seem to imply that a PC who shapechanges into, say, a Retriever can't hit people with its eyebeams, as the text says "a Retriever's eyes can produce four different magical rays", and a PC shapechanged into one is not in fact a Retriever.

Yup, thats what the language says. I don't write this crap.

However, the Feed ability specifically gives NPC Barghests the ability to have thier own form of character advancement above and beyond normal monster advancement. Since PC Barghests don't have that ability(per Savage Species), and PCs have their own advancement track(gaining XP to gain levels), I think that assuming that PCs who are assuming the form of Barghests get the ability is a little dodgy.

Wrenfield · Post by **Wrenfield** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:44 pm

Josh_Kablack at [unixtime wrote:1072444748[/unixtime]]Improvisation from Song and Silence. (Bard 5)

It gives the caster a +2 per level luck bonus to an attack roll, skill tjeck, or ability tjeck. You could split it over a couple of rounds like they suggest, or you could be an idjit and use it as a 5th level True Strike, but really, the point is that the wizard can now use Limited Wish to avoid any chance of backlash from Contact Other Plane and just about automaticly win any of those opposed Cha tjecks for calling critters and the Bard can do crazy things to items which have Break DCs.

It is a really narrow cheese, especially for a 5th level spell,
but being able to add +20 to +30 to rolls within a set where the highest DC in the rules is 40 (pushing over a Wall of Iron in 3.0) does occasionally push the boundries of the system.

To note about Contact Other Plane ... you can just assign the failed check penalty to your Familiar.

Which I believe is legal because of the word "you" as a target can be proxied over to your familiar. Best to have a Raven familiar for this bit o' cheese. Since he can speak, he can ask the questions. This way you both get the answers, and your Raven suffers the consequence if the check roll fails. Making Contact Other Plane one of the friendliest and best spells in the game!

MrWaeseL · Post by **MrWaeseL** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:00 pm

Frank, in some of your older posts on Nifty you talk about Enhance Wilshape where is that spell from and what does it do?

Sma · Post by **Sma** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:55 pm

It´s from Dragon 292, p.48, courtesy of the DragonDex.

It allows for one of these with each casting:
- +4 Bonus to STR, DEX or CON,
- get Ex abilities,
- take Beast or Plant Shape.
The Boni last as long as you´re staying in that form. Which effectively means forever.
There´s no reason why a Druid simply wouldnt take a few days off to layer on some nice forms for the Ex abilites, before finishing with the form he wants.

The only problem is being able to take you´re own form without starting the process all over.

Greetings,
Sma

PS: and you might also want to check out the CrystalKeep which I find quite usefull for locating stuff like that. There are bound to be some errors in the short descriptions though.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:03 pm

The form itself only lasts 1 hour/level, so it's not quite forever. However, since the spell hangs around for an hour per level before the shape comes up, you can do some pretty exciting things with day overlaps.

Basically, if you play 3rd edition rules, and you allow the MotW stuff, there is no good god damned reason why a Druid wouldn't use this like all the damn time.

-Username17

The Gaming Den

Absolutely Essential Arcane Spells .... although Non-Core.

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Re: Absolutely Essential Arcane Spells .... although Non-Cor

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Re: Absolutely Essential Arcane Spells .... although Non-Cor

Re: Absolutely Essential Arcane Spells .... although Non-Cor

Re: Absolutely Essential Arcane Spells .... although Non-Cor